1 00:00:11,270 --> 00:00:08,299 on this episode of skeptic oh I talked 2 00:00:15,230 --> 00:00:11,280 with Roy Davis about his book the Darwin 3 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:15,240 conspiracy this is either an incredible 4 00:00:21,859 --> 00:00:18,210 coincidence or something more Darwin has 5 00:00:23,900 --> 00:00:21,869 this explosion of ideas announces to his 6 00:00:26,570 --> 00:00:23,910 colleagues that he's had this incredible 7 00:00:28,970 --> 00:00:26,580 breakthrough during these two weeks that 8 00:00:32,139 --> 00:00:28,980 are in question about when he received 9 00:00:34,610 --> 00:00:32,149 the letter from Wallace it's also an 10 00:00:37,310 --> 00:00:34,620 incredible coincidence if we're to 11 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:37,320 believe the status quo traditional story 12 00:00:42,010 --> 00:00:40,050 that they would both focus in and this 13 00:00:44,569 --> 00:00:42,020 idea would crystallize for both of them 14 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:44,579 exactly at the same time I mean it's 15 00:00:49,490 --> 00:00:47,850 either an incredible coincidence or it's 16 00:00:52,729 --> 00:00:49,500 something more it's plagiarism as you 17 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:52,739 suggest the story is just too much to 18 00:00:59,119 --> 00:00:56,370 believe Darwin's own history in this 19 00:01:02,389 --> 00:00:59,129 area is suspect for people to claim that 20 00:01:05,090 --> 00:01:02,399 this was a coincidence is just is just 21 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:05,100 outlandish there is no point another 22 00:01:10,370 --> 00:01:07,170 academics in the book that I quote say 23 00:01:14,530 --> 00:01:10,380 this there is no point at which Darwin's 24 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:14,540 research comes before Wallace's ideas 25 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:30,570 welcome to skeptic aware we explore 26 00:01:34,139 --> 00:01:32,170 controversial science with leading 27 00:01:36,300 --> 00:01:34,149 researchers thinkers and their critics 28 00:01:38,639 --> 00:01:36,310 i'm your host aleksic Harrison on this 29 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:38,649 episode a show I've been waiting a long 30 00:01:43,980 --> 00:01:41,770 time to do Roy Davis's book was 31 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:43,990 introduced to me by a longtime member of 32 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:46,570 The Skeptical form and his ideas have 33 00:01:51,630 --> 00:01:49,330 stuck in my head ever since it was a 34 00:01:54,149 --> 00:01:51,640 delight to talk to him and bring to 35 00:01:57,139 --> 00:01:54,159 light his amazing discoveries about the 36 00:02:00,149 --> 00:01:57,149 true history of the theory of evolution 37 00:02:02,820 --> 00:02:00,159 today we welcome Roy Davis to skeptic Oh 38 00:02:05,639 --> 00:02:02,830 Roy as a former BBC filmmaker and 39 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:05,649 journalist and author of the Darwin 40 00:02:12,210 --> 00:02:09,130 conspiracy origins of a scientific crime 41 00:02:14,729 --> 00:02:12,220 Roy welcome to skeptic oh thanks so much 42 00:02:16,710 --> 00:02:14,739 for joining me thank you like as I was 43 00:02:20,430 --> 00:02:16,720 just mentioning a minute ago Roy I have 44 00:02:23,970 --> 00:02:20,440 to tell you this book of yours to me is 45 00:02:26,640 --> 00:02:23,980 one of the most underappreciated books 46 00:02:29,099 --> 00:02:26,650 I've run across because the implications 47 00:02:33,750 --> 00:02:29,109 of your theory if they're true and I 48 00:02:35,670 --> 00:02:33,760 think they are are quite dramatic so let 49 00:02:37,949 --> 00:02:35,680 me as a way of an introduction if you 50 00:02:41,340 --> 00:02:37,959 will let me kind of lay out a very 51 00:02:45,060 --> 00:02:41,350 thumbnail sketch of the theory you claim 52 00:02:49,170 --> 00:02:45,070 that Charles Darwin that God among gods 53 00:02:51,390 --> 00:02:49,180 of sanity be good while he was toiling 54 00:02:54,509 --> 00:02:51,400 away on this theory of evolution he 55 00:02:57,840 --> 00:02:54,519 received this this gift this wonderful 56 00:03:00,630 --> 00:02:57,850 boost in the form of a letter from a guy 57 00:03:02,490 --> 00:03:00,640 who was also working on the theory of 58 00:03:05,069 --> 00:03:02,500 evolution a guy who's acknowledged as 59 00:03:06,690 --> 00:03:05,079 the co-discoverer of the theory of 60 00:03:10,370 --> 00:03:06,700 evolution that being Alfred Russel 61 00:03:13,379 --> 00:03:10,380 Wallace and you claim that Darwin stoled 62 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:13,389 plagiarized some of the key elements of 63 00:03:17,460 --> 00:03:15,370 his theory really the springboard to 64 00:03:20,789 --> 00:03:17,470 rejuvenate this work he'd been doing 65 00:03:23,759 --> 00:03:20,799 from Alfred Russel Wallace and then that 66 00:03:27,390 --> 00:03:23,769 he lied about it is that the gist of 67 00:03:28,620 --> 00:03:27,400 your claim yeah okay simple enough so 68 00:03:31,170 --> 00:03:28,630 tell us a little bit about your 69 00:03:32,340 --> 00:03:31,180 background and how you got to become 70 00:03:36,350 --> 00:03:32,350 interested in this part 71 00:03:39,900 --> 00:03:36,360 okay right let's start the beginning 72 00:03:41,370 --> 00:03:39,910 m-my primary training was as a 73 00:03:44,540 --> 00:03:41,380 journalist as a cup journalist on a 74 00:03:48,690 --> 00:03:44,550 newspaper in south wales in britain and 75 00:03:51,660 --> 00:03:48,700 one of the one of the most important 76 00:03:54,180 --> 00:03:51,670 lessons that I learned at that stage was 77 00:03:56,730 --> 00:03:54,190 from a senior reporter who said to me 78 00:04:00,140 --> 00:03:56,740 quite simply look from now on do not 79 00:04:04,020 --> 00:04:00,150 accept any story that you are told by 80 00:04:06,090 --> 00:04:04,030 less than two people meaning if you one 81 00:04:07,470 --> 00:04:06,100 person tells you a story you go out and 82 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:07,480 check it with somebody else who doesn't 83 00:04:10,590 --> 00:04:08,890 know that person and make sure it's the 84 00:04:12,420 --> 00:04:10,600 right story otherwise we are all going 85 00:04:14,850 --> 00:04:12,430 to be in trouble in this newspaper and 86 00:04:18,350 --> 00:04:14,860 that stayed with me as a pretty good 87 00:04:20,729 --> 00:04:18,360 line about how to approach stories and 88 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:20,739 eventually aleph journalism went back to 89 00:04:26,700 --> 00:04:24,010 college I joined the BBC and after some 90 00:04:28,890 --> 00:04:26,710 years I became the managing director or 91 00:04:32,790 --> 00:04:28,900 the managing editor of history programs 92 00:04:35,970 --> 00:04:32,800 at the BBC and one day I asked one of my 93 00:04:38,070 --> 00:04:35,980 producers and to come in and see me and 94 00:04:39,660 --> 00:04:38,080 he said he wanted to make a program 95 00:04:43,620 --> 00:04:39,670 about Charles down in a new book had 96 00:04:44,850 --> 00:04:43,630 been written this was 1990 1991 and the 97 00:04:46,110 --> 00:04:44,860 new book had been written about Charles 98 00:04:47,910 --> 00:04:46,120 Domini he want to make a program about 99 00:04:50,310 --> 00:04:47,920 it I didn't know much about Charles 100 00:04:52,860 --> 00:04:50,320 Darwin and accept the theory of 101 00:04:56,010 --> 00:04:52,870 evolution and I wanted to learn as much 102 00:04:57,870 --> 00:04:56,020 as he knew so I said okay good good good 103 00:05:01,170 --> 00:04:57,880 story let's see what let's make it and 104 00:05:03,180 --> 00:05:01,180 he came back later with a very good 105 00:05:06,900 --> 00:05:03,190 program which went out on the BBC under 106 00:05:11,090 --> 00:05:06,910 my name is editor and his name and that 107 00:05:15,660 --> 00:05:11,100 program was called The Devil's Chaplin 108 00:05:18,540 --> 00:05:15,670 CH apla IN and it went down very well 109 00:05:22,290 --> 00:05:18,550 indeed and a few years later left the 110 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:22,300 BBC and a woman were you sir from whales 111 00:05:26,460 --> 00:05:24,730 came up to me and said you made the 112 00:05:29,060 --> 00:05:26,470 Darwin program and I said yes and she 113 00:05:32,070 --> 00:05:29,070 said she said you told the wrong story 114 00:05:33,180 --> 00:05:32,080 I'm not flummoxed me totally because I 115 00:05:35,460 --> 00:05:33,190 said what you mean she told the wrong 116 00:05:37,410 --> 00:05:35,470 story stories every knows and she said 117 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:37,420 yes of course it is the story everyone's 118 00:05:42,450 --> 00:05:39,370 been told and everybody's bought into 119 00:05:44,270 --> 00:05:42,460 this not the correct story in fact you 120 00:05:45,930 --> 00:05:44,280 never mentioned Alfred Russel Wallace 121 00:05:47,550 --> 00:05:45,940 and that hit 122 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:47,560 me because i thought well who the hell 123 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:49,570 is this guy you know i had no idea it 124 00:05:55,470 --> 00:05:52,570 didn't appear in the program and so from 125 00:05:58,230 --> 00:05:55,480 that moment on I started research into 126 00:06:00,930 --> 00:05:58,240 our traders r Wallace and and what I 127 00:06:02,940 --> 00:06:00,940 found just flabbergasted me just just 128 00:06:05,460 --> 00:06:02,950 one thing after another came out of the 129 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:05,470 actual papers and documents of the time 130 00:06:10,710 --> 00:06:08,650 which I could not have expected and and 131 00:06:13,830 --> 00:06:10,720 led me to write the book that's that's 132 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:13,840 quite a story i love that the journalist 133 00:06:18,540 --> 00:06:16,210 whose journalistic sensibilities are 134 00:06:21,270 --> 00:06:18,550 challenged by someone who comes up and 135 00:06:23,490 --> 00:06:21,280 says you didn't get the story right and 136 00:06:25,470 --> 00:06:23,500 then you have the attack integrity to 137 00:06:29,220 --> 00:06:25,480 say gee if I didn't get the story right 138 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:29,230 I have to pursue that so before we talk 139 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:31,210 about what you've discovered the 140 00:06:34,950 --> 00:06:33,130 evidence for it what some of your 141 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:34,960 critics have said which i think is very 142 00:06:41,010 --> 00:06:36,370 important I'd love to do that on the 143 00:06:42,980 --> 00:06:41,020 show I opening let's talk about why this 144 00:06:45,690 --> 00:06:42,990 is important because a lot of people 145 00:06:48,450 --> 00:06:45,700 would love to make this about religion 146 00:06:49,950 --> 00:06:48,460 baby Jesus Bible creationism that's 147 00:06:53,190 --> 00:06:49,960 worth a lot of the critics especially 148 00:06:55,550 --> 00:06:53,200 Roy folks here in the states they'd like 149 00:06:58,650 --> 00:06:55,560 to take it there because it's an easy 150 00:07:01,440 --> 00:06:58,660 argument to win they can just label you 151 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:01,450 as some kind of creationists some guy 152 00:07:05,909 --> 00:07:04,090 who has some agenda religious agenda and 153 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:05,919 that that's what this is all about so 154 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:07,930 let's just get that out in front okay 155 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:13,090 right away the my my stunts my son's 156 00:07:18,750 --> 00:07:15,250 personally is that I have no religion I 157 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:18,760 am totally a religious person and I have 158 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:22,890 no belief at all in the afterlife God 159 00:07:29,100 --> 00:07:26,410 Creator whatever I've done this is 160 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:29,110 simply about two men this is about two 161 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:32,410 men who more or less at the same time in 162 00:07:37,380 --> 00:07:34,090 different parts of the world were trying 163 00:07:38,970 --> 00:07:37,390 to do the same thing one you're in 164 00:07:41,820 --> 00:07:38,980 Britain the other one floating around 165 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:41,830 the world in different locations and for 166 00:07:48,540 --> 00:07:45,490 me and the connection between these two 167 00:07:51,270 --> 00:07:48,550 men who never met in the years that they 168 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:51,280 were trying to prove the same thing only 169 00:07:56,279 --> 00:07:53,890 afterwards that they meet and these two 170 00:07:58,200 --> 00:07:56,289 men the story between the hose the 171 00:07:59,129 --> 00:07:58,210 between them at a distance of some like 172 00:08:02,610 --> 00:07:59,139 8,000 mile 173 00:08:04,890 --> 00:08:02,620 it became such an interesting story that 174 00:08:07,469 --> 00:08:04,900 I just couldn't put it down and so the 175 00:08:10,140 --> 00:08:07,479 research cook me on and off and 12 years 176 00:08:12,839 --> 00:08:10,150 and resulted in the book that you got in 177 00:08:17,189 --> 00:08:12,849 front of you that great and we might 178 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:17,199 also add that this theory and the way 179 00:08:24,959 --> 00:08:20,770 this little battle competition it plays 180 00:08:27,179 --> 00:08:24,969 out is that Darwinian evolution has 181 00:08:30,209 --> 00:08:27,189 become the lens through which science 182 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:30,219 sees the world and you know we spent a 183 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:32,490 lot of time on this show on skeptical 184 00:08:37,350 --> 00:08:35,050 investigating issues around human 185 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:37,360 consciousness because if you want to 186 00:08:41,670 --> 00:08:39,130 look at big picture science questions 187 00:08:44,069 --> 00:08:41,680 you know the who are we why are we here 188 00:08:47,490 --> 00:08:44,079 kind of questions you always come back 189 00:08:50,250 --> 00:08:47,500 to the question of consciousness am i a 190 00:08:52,470 --> 00:08:50,260 biological robot is there a me in there 191 00:08:56,329 --> 00:08:52,480 is my brain just creating this illusion 192 00:08:59,699 --> 00:08:56,339 of me that question is at the bedrock of 193 00:09:02,790 --> 00:08:59,709 every question that science asks and I 194 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:02,800 think Darwinian evolution is really the 195 00:09:08,759 --> 00:09:05,730 foundational pillar in this 196 00:09:11,009 --> 00:09:08,769 pronouncement this position that you are 197 00:09:13,079 --> 00:09:11,019 just a biological robot and a 198 00:09:16,050 --> 00:09:13,089 meaningless part of the nature's machine 199 00:09:17,910 --> 00:09:16,060 kind of worldview so whatever we make of 200 00:09:20,939 --> 00:09:17,920 that whether you buy into that or you 201 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:20,949 don't buy into it I think we have to say 202 00:09:25,620 --> 00:09:23,290 that that's why this is important 203 00:09:28,439 --> 00:09:25,630 because that's what Darwinian evolution 204 00:09:31,350 --> 00:09:28,449 has become absolutely what I wanted to 205 00:09:35,100 --> 00:09:31,360 do then was say you know we have reason 206 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:35,110 to look at this a little deeper and I 207 00:09:41,250 --> 00:09:38,890 think asked some bigger questions about 208 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:41,260 why this matters about why we should 209 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:43,810 probe so deeply into the kind of 210 00:09:47,519 --> 00:09:45,610 questions that you raised because I 211 00:09:49,680 --> 00:09:47,529 think as we dig into the evidence which 212 00:09:52,439 --> 00:09:49,690 is what i'd like to do next i'd like to 213 00:09:54,449 --> 00:09:52,449 have people continue ask in the back of 214 00:09:57,210 --> 00:09:54,459 their mind well why does this matter who 215 00:09:59,639 --> 00:09:57,220 cares and the question is why do I live 216 00:10:01,860 --> 00:09:59,649 in the world that I live in and I think 217 00:10:04,470 --> 00:10:01,870 hopefully at the end of this Roy we can 218 00:10:06,689 --> 00:10:04,480 come back and re-examine some of those 219 00:10:08,970 --> 00:10:06,699 questions after we look at most 220 00:10:10,860 --> 00:10:08,980 importantly the evidence we have to find 221 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:10,870 out if you really did discover anything 222 00:10:14,699 --> 00:10:12,970 if this theory of yours makes 223 00:10:19,350 --> 00:10:14,709 any sense and how it stands up to the 224 00:10:23,490 --> 00:10:19,360 critics so let's start with the letter 225 00:10:26,879 --> 00:10:23,500 what is the letter they were there were 226 00:10:28,590 --> 00:10:26,889 two letters and once I once upon a time 227 00:10:31,650 --> 00:10:28,600 I thought that I might call this program 228 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:31,660 two letters for mr. Darwin because 229 00:10:39,059 --> 00:10:34,930 basically the the whole point of this 230 00:10:42,540 --> 00:10:39,069 story revolves about when Alfred Russel 231 00:10:44,879 --> 00:10:42,550 Wallace made his discoveries and how 232 00:10:47,639 --> 00:10:44,889 much later on Charles Darwin claimed 233 00:10:50,579 --> 00:10:47,649 those discoveries as his own and there 234 00:10:54,829 --> 00:10:50,589 were two different letters one was sent 235 00:10:58,999 --> 00:10:54,839 in October 1856 and that was including 236 00:11:02,309 --> 00:10:59,009 Wallace's own ideas about the basic 237 00:11:07,319 --> 00:11:02,319 tools if you like of evolution and the 238 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:07,329 second one was sent in March 1858 and 239 00:11:12,329 --> 00:11:09,490 that became the famous letter that 240 00:11:15,119 --> 00:11:12,339 Darwin claimed he received two weeks 241 00:11:18,590 --> 00:11:15,129 later than he did in order that he could 242 00:11:24,079 --> 00:11:18,600 then fill up 66 pages of his ongoing 243 00:11:26,369 --> 00:11:24,089 natural ongoing thesis if you like the 244 00:11:28,769 --> 00:11:26,379 manuscript he was then writing his 245 00:11:31,290 --> 00:11:28,779 journal write his journal entries no 246 00:11:33,210 --> 00:11:31,300 Rodney's journal literacy this was the 247 00:11:36,749 --> 00:11:33,220 natural selection manuscript that he was 248 00:11:41,059 --> 00:11:36,759 then completing that Lions gested he do 249 00:11:45,590 --> 00:11:41,069 some years before and in that in that 250 00:11:49,350 --> 00:11:45,600 manuscript he introduced 66 pages of 251 00:11:52,170 --> 00:11:49,360 information about the theory of 252 00:11:55,079 --> 00:11:52,180 divergence which Wallace by this time 253 00:11:59,309 --> 00:11:55,089 had sent him and cleared up a huge 254 00:12:02,069 --> 00:11:59,319 amount of information and selection 255 00:12:05,129 --> 00:12:02,079 about this and Darwin then copied it 256 00:12:07,439 --> 00:12:05,139 into his nut refraction manuscript and 257 00:12:10,769 --> 00:12:07,449 claimed it that he'd had it there for 258 00:12:12,660 --> 00:12:10,779 some time and then he announced that it 259 00:12:14,759 --> 00:12:12,670 had a letter from Darwin from Wallace 260 00:12:16,499 --> 00:12:14,769 which in fact of course he had in his 261 00:12:18,869 --> 00:12:16,509 own collection for about two weeks and 262 00:12:21,660 --> 00:12:18,879 it was that letter that became the 263 00:12:25,650 --> 00:12:21,670 famous letter which started the whole 264 00:12:26,759 --> 00:12:25,660 linnaean procedure off in London and on 265 00:12:42,449 --> 00:12:26,769 the 266 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:42,459 name was put first and hence Charles 267 00:12:47,489 --> 00:12:44,850 Darwin and Wallace as the discoverers 268 00:12:50,519 --> 00:12:47,499 eventually became Charles Darwin the 269 00:12:53,879 --> 00:12:50,529 discoverer of wallet of evolution and 270 00:12:56,489 --> 00:12:53,889 Wallace's name was forgotten okay I want 271 00:12:59,879 --> 00:12:56,499 to pour over the details of some of that 272 00:13:03,059 --> 00:12:59,889 because they're obviously very important 273 00:13:06,269 --> 00:13:03,069 first I want to talk about this two-week 274 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:06,279 difference it alluded to the fact that 275 00:13:14,999 --> 00:13:10,689 we can trace a significant amount of new 276 00:13:18,509 --> 00:13:15,009 work that Darwin adds to his body of 277 00:13:21,419 --> 00:13:18,519 work during that two-week period can you 278 00:13:24,299 --> 00:13:21,429 tell us why we know that that we can 279 00:13:27,289 --> 00:13:24,309 trace a lot of Darwin's writings to that 280 00:13:31,410 --> 00:13:27,299 two-week period how do we know that okay 281 00:13:36,030 --> 00:13:31,420 and basically what he wrote in in those 282 00:13:40,710 --> 00:13:36,040 66 pages only came out when origin of 283 00:13:44,249 --> 00:13:40,720 species was published in 1859 and before 284 00:13:46,530 --> 00:13:44,259 that at the Linnaean nothing was 285 00:13:49,259 --> 00:13:46,540 referred to in terms of these 66 pages 286 00:13:52,949 --> 00:13:49,269 of new information Darwin didn't present 287 00:13:56,819 --> 00:13:52,959 those pages to Hooker or I'll and in his 288 00:13:59,400 --> 00:13:56,829 in his case for claiming and the theory 289 00:14:01,949 --> 00:13:59,410 of evolution as his own no an island 290 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:01,959 hooker never knew that that are taking 291 00:14:10,199 --> 00:14:05,730 place they just were not informed and so 292 00:14:13,590 --> 00:14:10,209 it was important because there are we 293 00:14:16,289 --> 00:14:13,600 knew at the back of his theory he had 294 00:14:19,710 --> 00:14:16,299 these 66 new pages of Wallace's 295 00:14:24,479 --> 00:14:19,720 information from taken from I believe 296 00:14:26,939 --> 00:14:24,489 Wallace's own outline of his theory and 297 00:14:29,039 --> 00:14:26,949 copied them into his book so what he was 298 00:14:31,889 --> 00:14:29,049 doing really was taking stuff that 299 00:14:33,780 --> 00:14:31,899 Wallace had sent him and putting it into 300 00:14:35,789 --> 00:14:33,790 his own manuscript and claiming it as 301 00:14:38,329 --> 00:14:35,799 his own that was the plagiarism charge 302 00:14:40,260 --> 00:14:38,339 that was the idea that he had stolen 303 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:40,270 Wallace's idea 304 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:43,570 now Wallace of course sent the letter to 305 00:14:49,470 --> 00:14:46,930 Darwin completely innocently I mean he 306 00:14:51,090 --> 00:14:49,480 just wanted Darwin's approval if you 307 00:14:54,090 --> 00:14:51,100 like of the fact that he'd come up with 308 00:14:56,570 --> 00:14:54,100 the theory of evolution and when Darwin 309 00:14:59,130 --> 00:14:56,580 got the letter I think he panicked 310 00:15:03,060 --> 00:14:59,140 started writing it into his manuscript a 311 00:15:06,870 --> 00:15:03,070 few days later claimed to occur that in 312 00:15:10,890 --> 00:15:06,880 fact he had now had that the he now had 313 00:15:14,270 --> 00:15:10,900 the as his the center of his theory as 314 00:15:16,830 --> 00:15:14,280 the central part of his theory and 315 00:15:18,810 --> 00:15:16,840 Wallace's idea we didn't say it was well 316 00:15:21,930 --> 00:15:18,820 as the idea he said it was his own so 317 00:15:24,630 --> 00:15:21,940 that divergence became the thing which 318 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:24,640 allowed on both Lyle and hooker to 319 00:15:30,180 --> 00:15:26,770 believe the Darwin came up with this 320 00:15:32,220 --> 00:15:30,190 theory on his own and now he was going 321 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:32,230 to lose out because Wallace had sent in 322 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:34,210 the letter which he sent produced two 323 00:15:39,990 --> 00:15:37,570 weeks later it was a it was a I think I 324 00:15:42,390 --> 00:15:40,000 think and I think the evidence I've 325 00:15:45,870 --> 00:15:42,400 offered proves it that in fact and 326 00:15:48,630 --> 00:15:45,880 Darwin and at that point reached the 327 00:15:52,020 --> 00:15:48,640 lowest ebb that he'd reached and and he 328 00:15:54,420 --> 00:15:52,030 had a long time before started doing 329 00:15:56,190 --> 00:15:54,430 this sort of stuff to other people at 330 00:15:59,220 --> 00:15:56,200 different times it wasn't the first time 331 00:16:02,040 --> 00:15:59,230 that he cheated and even your critics 332 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:02,050 while they might not agree on that last 333 00:16:09,270 --> 00:16:06,130 point Darwin had a history of fudging 334 00:16:12,170 --> 00:16:09,280 with his sources yes there is agreement 335 00:16:15,900 --> 00:16:12,180 on the fact that this is either an 336 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:15,910 incredible coincidence or something more 337 00:16:23,250 --> 00:16:19,570 it's a coincidence that Darwin has this 338 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:23,260 explosion of ideas announces to his 339 00:16:28,140 --> 00:16:25,330 colleagues that he's had this incredible 340 00:16:30,570 --> 00:16:28,150 breakthrough during these two weeks that 341 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:30,580 are in question about when he received 342 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:34,170 the letter from Wallace it's also an 343 00:16:39,330 --> 00:16:36,610 incredible coincidence if we're to 344 00:16:44,550 --> 00:16:39,340 believe the status quo traditional story 345 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:44,560 that Wallace would be this co-discoverer 346 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:48,370 right alongside Darwin who was kind of 347 00:16:52,530 --> 00:16:50,290 puttering around with these ideas that 348 00:16:54,150 --> 00:16:52,540 they would both focus in and this idea 349 00:16:56,790 --> 00:16:54,160 would crystallize for both 350 00:16:59,220 --> 00:16:56,800 them exactly at the same time given 351 00:17:01,050 --> 00:16:59,230 given the length of time that it takes 352 00:17:03,509 --> 00:17:01,060 for this correspondence to go back and 353 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:03,519 forth I mean it's either an incredible 354 00:17:08,159 --> 00:17:06,250 coincidence or it's something more it's 355 00:17:10,409 --> 00:17:08,169 plagiarism as you suggested it can we at 356 00:17:13,020 --> 00:17:10,419 least boil it down to that I mean we do 357 00:17:15,329 --> 00:17:13,030 have to agree that there's there's no 358 00:17:19,470 --> 00:17:15,339 other way to explain that I would say 359 00:17:22,319 --> 00:17:19,480 that the the story of coincidental Atia 360 00:17:25,949 --> 00:17:22,329 felt such a word is just too much to 361 00:17:28,710 --> 00:17:25,959 believe Darwin's own history in this 362 00:17:31,950 --> 00:17:28,720 area is suspect for people to claim that 363 00:17:35,730 --> 00:17:31,960 this was a coincidence is just it is 364 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:35,740 just outlandish and there is no point 365 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:37,330 and I make this point in the book there 366 00:17:42,299 --> 00:17:39,610 is no point another academics in the 367 00:17:46,470 --> 00:17:42,309 book that I quote say this there is no 368 00:17:51,930 --> 00:17:46,480 point at which Darwin's research comes 369 00:17:53,970 --> 00:17:51,940 before Wallace's ideas Wallace's ideas 370 00:17:56,730 --> 00:17:53,980 from the time that he goes to South 371 00:18:00,149 --> 00:17:56,740 America and then eventually on to the 372 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:00,159 Malay Archipelago he is sending ideas 373 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:03,850 back which Darwin then finds a way 374 00:18:09,899 --> 00:18:07,690 you're getting into his own research it 375 00:18:11,940 --> 00:18:09,909 never happens the other way around right 376 00:18:14,220 --> 00:18:11,950 although some of your critics have 377 00:18:17,190 --> 00:18:14,230 suggested that there did happen and that 378 00:18:18,870 --> 00:18:17,200 one of your critics says that Darwin 379 00:18:21,060 --> 00:18:18,880 even writes in his journal and an 380 00:18:24,299 --> 00:18:21,070 undated entry i might add which is 381 00:18:26,220 --> 00:18:24,309 highly suspicious but that darwin is 382 00:18:28,950 --> 00:18:26,230 commenting about Wallace's paper and he 383 00:18:32,279 --> 00:18:28,960 says nothing new the point being there's 384 00:18:34,020 --> 00:18:32,289 nothing new here from Wallace yeah 385 00:18:36,390 --> 00:18:34,030 that's absolutely true that's absolutely 386 00:18:40,770 --> 00:18:36,400 true and they were writing about the 387 00:18:42,810 --> 00:18:40,780 Sarawak law in 1855 September 1855 which 388 00:18:45,799 --> 00:18:42,820 Wallace had published in the annals and 389 00:18:49,260 --> 00:18:45,809 history of natural natural history and 390 00:18:54,060 --> 00:18:49,270 basically what what Darwin did was when 391 00:18:56,340 --> 00:18:54,070 he read this he claimed in the marginal 392 00:19:00,029 --> 00:18:56,350 notes that he was making that them there 393 00:19:04,470 --> 00:19:00,039 is nothing new here and to show that 394 00:19:07,950 --> 00:19:04,480 there was nothing new he actually put a 395 00:19:11,820 --> 00:19:07,960 straight marginal line down against 396 00:19:14,970 --> 00:19:11,830 35 of Wallace's paragraphs in his own 397 00:19:16,710 --> 00:19:14,980 copy of that role and indicating there 398 00:19:19,350 --> 00:19:16,720 by that he found each of those 399 00:19:21,120 --> 00:19:19,360 paragraphs of interest it wasn't just a 400 00:19:22,530 --> 00:19:21,130 question of him writing one thing down 401 00:19:27,120 --> 00:19:22,540 saying there's nothing of interest here 402 00:19:29,910 --> 00:19:27,130 or otherwise I mean why would he why 403 00:19:31,890 --> 00:19:29,920 would he write lines perpendicular lines 404 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:31,900 and sometimes more than one on each 405 00:19:38,580 --> 00:19:35,010 paragraph down throughout that piece of 406 00:19:41,940 --> 00:19:38,590 Wallace's in the annals it is unlikely 407 00:19:44,460 --> 00:19:41,950 and and not only unlikely but somebody's 408 00:19:46,890 --> 00:19:44,470 got to explain more than just that that 409 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:46,900 why would he make the lines why would he 410 00:19:51,090 --> 00:19:48,610 indicate the paragraphs had some 411 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:51,100 significance each one of them 35 412 00:19:55,470 --> 00:19:53,890 different ones in not peaceful and I 413 00:19:58,620 --> 00:19:55,480 think as you alluded to just a minute 414 00:20:01,230 --> 00:19:58,630 ago I think the strongest circumstantial 415 00:20:03,210 --> 00:20:01,240 evidence is the rush to publication 416 00:20:06,330 --> 00:20:03,220 right I mean here's a guy who's been 417 00:20:09,450 --> 00:20:06,340 dilling around with this stuff for years 418 00:20:12,570 --> 00:20:09,460 hasn't put it together and now he gets 419 00:20:15,780 --> 00:20:12,580 this letter and there's this rush to get 420 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:15,790 it to publication right and he even 421 00:20:21,810 --> 00:20:19,450 brings along Wallace which as you read 422 00:20:27,060 --> 00:20:21,820 it is is it is somewhat of almost a 423 00:20:29,490 --> 00:20:27,070 guilt exercise you know but clearly as 424 00:20:31,410 --> 00:20:29,500 you said Wallace is somewhat naive in 425 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:31,420 writing the letter to Darwin and saying 426 00:20:35,070 --> 00:20:33,250 hey you're an upper crust kind of guy 427 00:20:37,500 --> 00:20:35,080 with all the right connections maybe you 428 00:20:39,570 --> 00:20:37,510 can help me get this published and he's 429 00:20:41,610 --> 00:20:39,580 handing it over to a guy who says oh my 430 00:20:43,350 --> 00:20:41,620 gosh here's the stuff and then there's 431 00:20:46,710 --> 00:20:43,360 this tremendous rush do to get it to 432 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:46,720 publication is that right well if the 433 00:20:51,630 --> 00:20:48,250 story's been told before about them 434 00:20:53,820 --> 00:20:51,640 Mozart and Salieri and it's almost 435 00:20:56,070 --> 00:20:53,830 exactly the same story somebody who 436 00:20:58,200 --> 00:20:56,080 wants something so desperately and yet 437 00:20:59,580 --> 00:20:58,210 something somebody else has it how on 438 00:21:02,340 --> 00:20:59,590 earth you go about getting that for 439 00:21:03,900 --> 00:21:02,350 yourself and Darwin managed to do it he 440 00:21:06,120 --> 00:21:03,910 managed to convince people because he 441 00:21:07,770 --> 00:21:06,130 was upper crust and because he and 442 00:21:10,230 --> 00:21:07,780 Wallace had exchanged letters before 443 00:21:12,330 --> 00:21:10,240 this and Wallace didn't know anybody in 444 00:21:13,980 --> 00:21:12,340 the upper crust section of British 445 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:13,990 society certainly not the scientific 446 00:21:20,220 --> 00:21:17,050 society except his own agent and Samuel 447 00:21:21,430 --> 00:21:20,230 Stevens and it was Stevens who kept on 448 00:21:23,980 --> 00:21:21,440 sending him note say 449 00:21:25,869 --> 00:21:23,990 look will you stop theorizing trees and 450 00:21:27,789 --> 00:21:25,879 you know everybody here once you just to 451 00:21:31,029 --> 00:21:27,799 collect things and send them back and of 452 00:21:35,580 --> 00:21:31,039 course Wallace's whole instinct was how 453 00:21:39,610 --> 00:21:35,590 on earth do animals do does life and 454 00:21:41,590 --> 00:21:39,620 change in each generation or how did the 455 00:21:45,009 --> 00:21:41,600 generations change inside protect the 456 00:21:47,379 --> 00:21:45,019 species and he was he who actually found 457 00:21:49,419 --> 00:21:47,389 all this and put it together and then 458 00:21:51,610 --> 00:21:49,429 because he had corresponding with Darwin 459 00:21:54,759 --> 00:21:51,620 first of all he sent down in the letter 460 00:21:56,799 --> 00:21:54,769 Darwin replied saying to him what we 461 00:21:59,289 --> 00:21:56,809 thought much alike in fact he you know 462 00:22:01,180 --> 00:21:59,299 it was obvious when Lyle went to see him 463 00:22:03,369 --> 00:22:01,190 that they had not thought much alike and 464 00:22:05,289 --> 00:22:03,379 yet Darwin's convinced Wallace they 465 00:22:07,149 --> 00:22:05,299 thought much like Wallace had his own 466 00:22:09,610 --> 00:22:07,159 suspicions that they hadn't but then he 467 00:22:12,220 --> 00:22:09,620 sends another letter back to Darwin and 468 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:12,230 then Darwin replies under the last 469 00:22:16,180 --> 00:22:14,210 letter of the five of them was the one 470 00:22:17,590 --> 00:22:16,190 where Wallace actually said to him look 471 00:22:19,389 --> 00:22:17,600 I've come up with the theory of 472 00:22:20,830 --> 00:22:19,399 evolution would you have a look at it 473 00:22:22,869 --> 00:22:20,840 and if you think it's good enough really 474 00:22:25,330 --> 00:22:22,879 show it the charles lyell and that's 475 00:22:28,899 --> 00:22:25,340 where the story sort of gets bogged down 476 00:22:30,100 --> 00:22:28,909 in the whole question of what was in 477 00:22:32,529 --> 00:22:30,110 that letter because it doesn't exist 478 00:22:34,749 --> 00:22:32,539 anymore char dham and made sure that the 479 00:22:36,430 --> 00:22:34,759 letters don't exist anymore not only to 480 00:22:39,399 --> 00:22:36,440 Wallace but all the significant 481 00:22:41,379 --> 00:22:39,409 characters who may have offered and some 482 00:22:43,360 --> 00:22:41,389 kind of criticism of what he was doing 483 00:22:46,269 --> 00:22:43,370 particularly people against gray in 484 00:22:49,450 --> 00:22:46,279 Boston you know I mean who who none of 485 00:22:52,060 --> 00:22:49,460 Darwin's letters and none of Gray's 486 00:22:54,490 --> 00:22:52,070 letters to Darwin stay alive are in 487 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:54,500 extent at this moment but Darwin letters 488 00:22:59,649 --> 00:22:56,690 to gray are and in those letters at the 489 00:23:02,080 --> 00:22:59,659 gate he gets a game away so basically we 490 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:02,090 known for a fact that there's something 491 00:23:06,970 --> 00:23:05,450 seriously wrong with this story I mean 492 00:23:09,129 --> 00:23:06,980 people who love Darwin and our 493 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:09,139 Darwinists keep on saying but you can't 494 00:23:14,259 --> 00:23:10,850 prove it you can't prove it and that's 495 00:23:16,090 --> 00:23:14,269 partly because you know Darwin destroyed 496 00:23:19,060 --> 00:23:16,100 the evidence which might have been able 497 00:23:20,710 --> 00:23:19,070 to bring him down but but that isn't the 498 00:23:23,919 --> 00:23:20,720 only evidence we've got we've got a lot 499 00:23:26,740 --> 00:23:23,929 of heavens mostly that Wallace's ideas 500 00:23:30,430 --> 00:23:26,750 were first of all rubbish by Darwin and 501 00:23:32,980 --> 00:23:30,440 then taken and made into his own right 502 00:23:35,549 --> 00:23:32,990 and we should mention as long as you're 503 00:23:38,519 --> 00:23:35,559 talking about it what letter 504 00:23:41,879 --> 00:23:38,529 is meant during this time period because 505 00:23:44,039 --> 00:23:41,889 Laura send off an email we didn't we 506 00:23:46,710 --> 00:23:44,049 throw it in our trash and we don't think 507 00:23:49,919 --> 00:23:46,720 anything of it letters letters of this 508 00:23:52,889 --> 00:23:49,929 kind to be lost to be thrown away to be 509 00:23:56,639 --> 00:23:52,899 is virtually unheard of for a scientist 510 00:23:58,680 --> 00:23:56,649 like Darwin right indeed indeed I mean 511 00:24:01,919 --> 00:23:58,690 Darwin keeps all the letters like for 512 00:24:04,049 --> 00:24:01,929 his son going to the University or the 513 00:24:06,029 --> 00:24:04,059 ashmolean museum or whatever I mean he 514 00:24:08,759 --> 00:24:06,039 keeps those letters but the significant 515 00:24:10,529 --> 00:24:08,769 ones are not there and but the lack of 516 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:10,539 themselves you see this is this is the 517 00:24:15,090 --> 00:24:13,090 most important part everything hinges in 518 00:24:16,769 --> 00:24:15,100 this story and this is the this is a 519 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:16,779 difficult bit of getting across the 520 00:24:23,519 --> 00:24:19,090 people everything in the story hinges 521 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:23,529 eventually on two things one is the mail 522 00:24:30,930 --> 00:24:28,570 service between Singapore and home when 523 00:24:33,299 --> 00:24:30,940 it happened how it happened which ship 524 00:24:35,249 --> 00:24:33,309 stopped the mail which ships were meant 525 00:24:37,169 --> 00:24:35,259 to take the mail and which ships 526 00:24:40,289 --> 00:24:37,179 actually carried the mail the second 527 00:24:43,109 --> 00:24:40,299 part of it is the whole idea of letters 528 00:24:45,810 --> 00:24:43,119 themselves and their significance in the 529 00:24:48,389 --> 00:24:45,820 middle of the 19th century the whole 530 00:24:51,299 --> 00:24:48,399 idea of letters coming from an area of 531 00:24:54,269 --> 00:24:51,309 the world where the British were in 532 00:24:56,159 --> 00:24:54,279 China in trouble with the with the 533 00:25:01,680 --> 00:24:56,169 Chinese uprising against them their 534 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:01,690 their attempt to keep hold of bits of 535 00:25:05,700 --> 00:25:03,129 China which they shouldn't have done and 536 00:25:09,090 --> 00:25:05,710 the second part was the whole Indian 537 00:25:12,539 --> 00:25:09,100 Mutiny which began in 1857 which had 538 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:12,549 been boiling since 1856 and those two 539 00:25:18,239 --> 00:25:15,970 things made the mail from Singapore home 540 00:25:20,519 --> 00:25:18,249 the most important channel of 541 00:25:22,649 --> 00:25:20,529 information for anybody to do with 542 00:25:25,169 --> 00:25:22,659 governing the British in India or in 543 00:25:28,919 --> 00:25:25,179 China okay so let's let's put an 544 00:25:33,180 --> 00:25:28,929 exclamation point on that mail service 545 00:25:35,879 --> 00:25:33,190 is the internet the railroad the highway 546 00:25:38,039 --> 00:25:35,889 system all wrapped together for the 547 00:25:41,100 --> 00:25:38,049 British Empire it's the way the whole 548 00:25:44,310 --> 00:25:41,110 thing runs back then absolutely and most 549 00:25:47,159 --> 00:25:44,320 importantly what you reveal in this book 550 00:25:49,260 --> 00:25:47,169 and through your research is that there 551 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:49,270 is really no way 552 00:25:55,170 --> 00:25:51,850 darwin could have gotten the letter on 553 00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:55,180 the day when he said he did it really 554 00:26:00,330 --> 00:25:57,010 doesn't make any sense and as a matter 555 00:26:03,180 --> 00:26:00,340 of fact even your critics agree that it 556 00:26:05,850 --> 00:26:03,190 would be a highly unusual set of 557 00:26:07,620 --> 00:26:05,860 circumstances for it to arrive on that 558 00:26:10,740 --> 00:26:07,630 day and the reason for that is because 559 00:26:13,710 --> 00:26:10,750 as you just said the mail at this point 560 00:26:15,060 --> 00:26:13,720 in history is a regularly scheduled 561 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:15,070 event and when it comes from the other 562 00:26:20,100 --> 00:26:17,530 side of the world we can trace down when 563 00:26:23,550 --> 00:26:20,110 that happened why do you think it's so 564 00:26:26,100 --> 00:26:23,560 unlikely that Charles Darwin received 565 00:26:30,900 --> 00:26:26,110 that letter on the date that he said he 566 00:26:34,110 --> 00:26:30,910 did okay there's no likelihood at all 567 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:34,120 one of my critics is john van y who is 568 00:26:39,270 --> 00:26:36,730 now in singapore who was a darwin 569 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:39,280 enthusiast now the point of john runway 570 00:26:44,700 --> 00:26:43,210 is making is that John because he needs 571 00:26:46,770 --> 00:26:44,710 it to happen in the middle of the month 572 00:26:49,410 --> 00:26:46,780 gets the first boat to pick up the mail 573 00:26:52,050 --> 00:26:49,420 and take it a Singapore totally without 574 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:52,060 precedent well we can we can jump in 575 00:26:56,100 --> 00:26:54,010 there and I I can shut that down right I 576 00:26:58,350 --> 00:26:56,110 mean if there's a better example of 577 00:27:01,320 --> 00:26:58,360 apologetics I don't know where it is if 578 00:27:04,530 --> 00:27:01,330 there's a better example of dr. john van 579 00:27:07,650 --> 00:27:04,540 why starting with the conclusion that he 580 00:27:09,990 --> 00:27:07,660 wants and then working backwards to try 581 00:27:14,430 --> 00:27:10,000 and make it fit the circumstances that 582 00:27:17,850 --> 00:27:14,440 we know it's absurd what were if you 583 00:27:20,130 --> 00:27:17,860 could spend a minute tell us why he's 584 00:27:22,170 --> 00:27:20,140 jumping through all these hoops because 585 00:27:24,060 --> 00:27:22,180 as I understand the reason he's jumping 586 00:27:26,370 --> 00:27:24,070 through all these hoops is that the 587 00:27:29,370 --> 00:27:26,380 regularly scheduled mail the mail that 588 00:27:31,830 --> 00:27:29,380 gets reported in the newspaper around 589 00:27:33,540 --> 00:27:31,840 the world would not put the letter there 590 00:27:35,490 --> 00:27:33,550 at the time that Darwin claims that it's 591 00:27:38,730 --> 00:27:35,500 their right and they become the other 592 00:27:41,580 --> 00:27:38,740 way around the mayor coming back from 593 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:41,590 the Far East from Singapore there were 594 00:27:47,940 --> 00:27:44,050 two deliveries a month from Singapore to 595 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:47,950 Britain and they had only been in 56 one 596 00:27:53,190 --> 00:27:50,290 a month but the British because of the 597 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:53,200 connection with the India and China were 598 00:27:57,210 --> 00:27:55,570 in were in desperate need of having a 599 00:27:59,430 --> 00:27:57,220 more regular service to find out exactly 600 00:28:00,780 --> 00:27:59,440 what was happening they didn't know what 601 00:28:02,120 --> 00:28:00,790 their army was doing they didn't know 602 00:28:04,730 --> 00:28:02,130 what was happening in the 603 00:28:06,830 --> 00:28:04,740 engine revolution in the mutiny nobody 604 00:28:09,170 --> 00:28:06,840 had any idea until the mail came in and 605 00:28:12,230 --> 00:28:09,180 so that made the biggest thing on the 606 00:28:14,630 --> 00:28:12,240 headlines in The Times of London every 607 00:28:16,970 --> 00:28:14,640 two weeks was the mail has arrived it's 608 00:28:20,750 --> 00:28:16,980 the most amazing piece of news it always 609 00:28:22,420 --> 00:28:20,760 led the papers on that day now then the 610 00:28:24,740 --> 00:28:22,430 mayor from that came from the 611 00:28:26,780 --> 00:28:24,750 archipelago the May archipelago where 612 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:26,790 dark where Wallace was at the time he 613 00:28:32,660 --> 00:28:30,450 discovered the theory always came from 614 00:28:35,510 --> 00:28:32,670 the archipelago to Britain and arrived 615 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:35,520 on the second day or the third day of 616 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:38,010 every month the second delivery always 617 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:41,250 ended up in the middle of the month but 618 00:28:47,300 --> 00:28:43,170 that middle of the month mail never 619 00:28:49,940 --> 00:28:47,310 included mail from the archipelago now 620 00:28:52,430 --> 00:28:49,950 John van why insist that the mail from 621 00:28:55,220 --> 00:28:52,440 the archipelago arrived on june 622 00:28:57,620 --> 00:28:55,230 eighteenth and I'm saying that because 623 00:29:00,710 --> 00:28:57,630 of what I know over the scheduler boats 624 00:29:04,970 --> 00:29:00,720 in the Far East to at that time that 625 00:29:08,030 --> 00:29:04,980 letter posted on the 9th of March 1858 626 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:08,040 arrived on june the second in london on 627 00:29:12,500 --> 00:29:10,890 june the third in Darwin's home and he 628 00:29:15,230 --> 00:29:12,510 was fought back reason that for the next 629 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:15,240 two weeks Darwin had the chance to 630 00:29:20,030 --> 00:29:17,730 introduce into his natural selection 631 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:20,040 manuscript the 66 pages of new 632 00:29:24,890 --> 00:29:22,170 information that he had taken from 633 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:24,900 Wallace's own theory and that's why he 634 00:29:30,830 --> 00:29:26,850 was able to say to Lyle in his letters 635 00:29:32,630 --> 00:29:30,840 look this is appalling I worked on this 636 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:32,640 for years and you are I get a letter 637 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:34,770 from Wallace saying exactly the same 638 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:38,130 things his ideas could stand headlines 639 00:29:42,950 --> 00:29:41,130 to my chapters or was ratified oh my god 640 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:42,960 that is immuno and that's what he did 641 00:29:49,220 --> 00:29:46,770 and when John van y insists that the the 642 00:29:52,130 --> 00:29:49,230 mail only came on the 18th it is because 643 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:52,140 he does not understand that the two 644 00:29:56,570 --> 00:29:54,330 firms taking and bringing mail from 645 00:29:59,660 --> 00:29:56,580 Singapore two entirely different firms 646 00:30:02,240 --> 00:29:59,670 and that one brought it and one took it 647 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:02,250 so the firm he's talking about but she 648 00:30:05,930 --> 00:30:03,690 took the mail from Singapore and 649 00:30:09,140 --> 00:30:05,940 delivered it to north and the 650 00:30:11,990 --> 00:30:09,150 archipelago I'm saying that the other 651 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:12,000 firm fetch the mail from the archipelago 652 00:30:15,940 --> 00:30:13,890 from the firm that Surabaya on Java 653 00:30:18,610 --> 00:30:15,950 delivered it first 654 00:30:21,129 --> 00:30:18,620 to Jakarta which was then Battaglia and 655 00:30:23,139 --> 00:30:21,139 then to Singapore so one film took it 656 00:30:24,669 --> 00:30:23,149 among friend delivered it and the firm 657 00:30:26,950 --> 00:30:24,679 that delivered it always delivered the 658 00:30:30,340 --> 00:30:26,960 mail that ended up on the second of 659 00:30:32,950 --> 00:30:30,350 every month in London unless there was 660 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:32,960 some small discrepancy either way 661 00:30:36,580 --> 00:30:34,610 because of tides or whether or whatever 662 00:30:38,470 --> 00:30:36,590 and I really like the way Roy that you 663 00:30:40,330 --> 00:30:38,480 you lay that out from the big picture 664 00:30:42,279 --> 00:30:40,340 standpoint because people really get a 665 00:30:44,950 --> 00:30:42,289 sense that even if you're going to make 666 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:44,960 this claim that the letter arrived two 667 00:30:49,870 --> 00:30:46,970 weeks later you have to acknowledge that 668 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:49,880 this is a rare occurrence so to add to 669 00:30:55,690 --> 00:30:52,970 all the other amazing coincidences you 670 00:30:58,899 --> 00:30:55,700 have to add the fact that halo letters 671 00:31:00,460 --> 00:30:58,909 from that territory never arrived on the 672 00:31:01,899 --> 00:31:00,470 8th it never has arrived at the 673 00:31:03,850 --> 00:31:01,909 beginning of the never did and you know 674 00:31:05,879 --> 00:31:03,860 something the strange thing is that John 675 00:31:09,430 --> 00:31:05,889 Glenn why calls me a conspiracy theorist 676 00:31:12,070 --> 00:31:09,440 because I don't agree with him on when 677 00:31:14,470 --> 00:31:12,080 the mail right and and yet not one 678 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:14,480 academic not one academic is yet 679 00:31:18,460 --> 00:31:16,490 challenged me to go through the points I 680 00:31:20,529 --> 00:31:18,470 make in the book and discuss whether I'm 681 00:31:22,330 --> 00:31:20,539 right or wrong you know I'm a conspiracy 682 00:31:24,549 --> 00:31:22,340 theorist what a conspiracy theorist is 683 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:24,559 somebody who makes up a theory which is 684 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:26,690 not borne out by the facts this isn't 685 00:31:30,580 --> 00:31:28,610 true about this book you know every fact 686 00:31:33,070 --> 00:31:30,590 in that book is checked and with with 687 00:31:34,990 --> 00:31:33,080 with references at the bar to everybody 688 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:35,000 who made the statements and they not me 689 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:38,690 the irony of course is that's what this 690 00:31:43,570 --> 00:31:40,970 story is really about it it's all about 691 00:31:46,419 --> 00:31:43,580 a conspiracy and it's further evidence 692 00:31:48,279 --> 00:31:46,429 of what i always say on the show over 693 00:31:52,629 --> 00:31:48,289 and over again is that if you're ever 694 00:31:54,970 --> 00:31:52,639 around power and money you realize that 695 00:31:57,399 --> 00:31:54,980 everything is a conspiracy everything 696 00:32:00,159 --> 00:31:57,409 that's really value you deny Finnick you 697 00:32:03,399 --> 00:32:00,169 do it like me well it's true i mean if 698 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:03,409 you're just playing a time game that no 699 00:32:06,370 --> 00:32:04,490 one cares about you just have a 700 00:32:08,980 --> 00:32:06,380 day-to-day job and you know life doesn't 701 00:32:11,590 --> 00:32:08,990 seem like a conspiracy but as you move 702 00:32:13,149 --> 00:32:11,600 up into where the real power and the 703 00:32:15,220 --> 00:32:13,159 money is my background is in business 704 00:32:17,830 --> 00:32:15,230 and I tell people all the time hey as I 705 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:17,840 got into bigger and bigger deals it was 706 00:32:21,700 --> 00:32:20,090 always a conspiracy well don't tell this 707 00:32:23,500 --> 00:32:21,710 person that what kind of information can 708 00:32:26,590 --> 00:32:23,510 we get that they don't know it's always 709 00:32:28,389 --> 00:32:26,600 a conspiracy so the whole idea of a 710 00:32:29,379 --> 00:32:28,399 conspiracy theory is really kind of 711 00:32:31,659 --> 00:32:29,389 laughable but 712 00:32:35,109 --> 00:32:31,669 as this story plays out it's a perfect 713 00:32:36,789 --> 00:32:35,119 example of of course Darwin is involved 714 00:32:38,469 --> 00:32:36,799 in a conspiracy and of course that 715 00:32:41,409 --> 00:32:38,479 language he's talking about is 716 00:32:43,659 --> 00:32:41,419 conspiratorial even at its surface it's 717 00:32:46,269 --> 00:32:43,669 conspiratorial and he's telling his 718 00:32:48,940 --> 00:32:46,279 colleagues that I've gotten this letter 719 00:32:50,709 --> 00:32:48,950 and it's going to squash all my work 720 00:32:52,329 --> 00:32:50,719 well that's a conspiracy right he's 721 00:32:54,430 --> 00:32:52,339 working kind of behind the scenes we 722 00:32:56,459 --> 00:32:54,440 have to get my paper out to the 723 00:32:59,139 --> 00:32:56,469 conference before this all that's a 724 00:33:00,789 --> 00:32:59,149 conspiracy it's an open it has indeed 725 00:33:03,789 --> 00:33:00,799 and you know something which is very 726 00:33:06,699 --> 00:33:03,799 interesting John Brooks who I met before 727 00:33:08,919 --> 00:33:06,709 he died who was one of the people who 728 00:33:11,919 --> 00:33:08,929 helped me in the first instance to get 729 00:33:13,749 --> 00:33:11,929 hold of this this idea properly John 730 00:33:16,180 --> 00:33:13,759 Brooks tried very hard to establish 731 00:33:19,209 --> 00:33:16,190 exactly when and where the post came 732 00:33:23,319 --> 00:33:19,219 from from indonesia's and made a big 733 00:33:27,789 --> 00:33:23,329 mistake he he he wasn't he wasn't helped 734 00:33:29,949 --> 00:33:27,799 by a professor in Holland as I was to 735 00:33:31,930 --> 00:33:29,959 get the date right and so he imagined 736 00:33:35,169 --> 00:33:31,940 that the date may have been may the 737 00:33:36,159 --> 00:33:35,179 eighteenth and that the letter came you 738 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:36,169 know and he put that as a possibility 739 00:33:40,449 --> 00:33:38,450 and people jumped on him I mean 740 00:33:43,599 --> 00:33:40,459 especially some people in America they 741 00:33:45,159 --> 00:33:43,609 jumped on him and and and really ruined 742 00:33:47,649 --> 00:33:45,169 his reputation saying you know I mean 743 00:33:49,509 --> 00:33:47,659 absolutely rubbish it could be that left 744 00:33:52,569 --> 00:33:49,519 the field in a difficult place to me but 745 00:33:54,459 --> 00:33:52,579 I did know but the second letter that 746 00:33:57,369 --> 00:33:54,469 the one we've just been talking about 747 00:33:59,349 --> 00:33:57,379 coming at the at the middle at the end 748 00:34:02,259 --> 00:33:59,359 was at the beginning of the month and 749 00:34:04,329 --> 00:34:02,269 was one thing but what nobody had picked 750 00:34:05,949 --> 00:34:04,339 up on which is why I really got 751 00:34:07,719 --> 00:34:05,959 interested in the story sighs I just 752 00:34:10,930 --> 00:34:07,729 wondered why nobody had picked up the 753 00:34:16,299 --> 00:34:10,940 fact but Wallace had sent his previous 754 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:16,309 letter to Darwin in October 1856 which 755 00:34:23,919 --> 00:34:19,210 should have arrived on january third 756 00:34:27,119 --> 00:34:23,929 1857 it back letter that post actually 757 00:34:29,799 --> 00:34:27,129 arrived 11 days late because of stones 758 00:34:33,190 --> 00:34:29,809 Darwin planed he didn't receive that 759 00:34:37,029 --> 00:34:33,200 letter for four months and four months 760 00:34:41,049 --> 00:34:37,039 later he had put into his own work both 761 00:34:43,180 --> 00:34:41,059 the idea of what divergence meant right 762 00:34:45,700 --> 00:34:43,190 as a theory which is very important 763 00:34:49,930 --> 00:34:45,710 and Wallace his second statement which 764 00:34:52,990 --> 00:34:49,940 was that new species and strongly marked 765 00:34:55,599 --> 00:34:53,000 varieties then Darwin took that and in 766 00:34:58,930 --> 00:34:55,609 the first instance wrote in his rotate 767 00:35:01,000 --> 00:34:58,940 into his journal into his manuscript 768 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:01,010 that he was writing the second thing is 769 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:03,890 sent to Hooker as an idea which had just 770 00:35:10,300 --> 00:35:06,650 crossed his mind well you know and that 771 00:35:13,809 --> 00:35:10,310 brings us back if we will to the 772 00:35:15,790 --> 00:35:13,819 implications for this because when we 773 00:35:18,700 --> 00:35:15,800 look back through the lens of history 774 00:35:21,089 --> 00:35:18,710 and look back at this it's stunning what 775 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:21,099 this has meant for us it's really about 776 00:35:27,430 --> 00:35:24,410 worldview it's about which one wins out 777 00:35:31,270 --> 00:35:27,440 had an interesting interview a while 778 00:35:34,030 --> 00:35:31,280 back with a Wallace biographer named 779 00:35:36,940 --> 00:35:34,040 professor Michael Flannery oh yeah what 780 00:35:40,390 --> 00:35:36,950 Flannery helped me see is that what 781 00:35:43,750 --> 00:35:40,400 Wallace saw and what Darwin didn't see 782 00:35:47,559 --> 00:35:43,760 is that it's not about survival it's 783 00:35:50,559 --> 00:35:47,569 about nonsurvival yeah so it's not about 784 00:35:53,380 --> 00:35:50,569 an individual surviving or striving to 785 00:35:56,829 --> 00:35:53,390 survive it's about who doesn't survive 786 00:35:59,319 --> 00:35:56,839 who is the least fit you don't have to 787 00:36:01,630 --> 00:35:59,329 be the best you just can't fall into the 788 00:36:04,660 --> 00:36:01,640 bottom charity event and the other thing 789 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:04,670 that Darwin was so wrong about and it's 790 00:36:08,500 --> 00:36:06,650 as it the implications for the world we 791 00:36:10,420 --> 00:36:08,510 live in are just stunning but it's not 792 00:36:13,630 --> 00:36:10,430 about individual survival no he's not 793 00:36:16,569 --> 00:36:13,640 it's about the group and and whether my 794 00:36:18,579 --> 00:36:16,579 group survives and is able to carry 795 00:36:21,460 --> 00:36:18,589 these genes forward it's about 796 00:36:23,710 --> 00:36:21,470 cooperation among the group which ball 797 00:36:25,329 --> 00:36:23,720 is found all over the place and part of 798 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:25,339 this goes back to the point that you 799 00:36:29,770 --> 00:36:27,290 made about who these people were I mean 800 00:36:32,109 --> 00:36:29,780 Alfred Russel Wallace as you alluded to 801 00:36:33,940 --> 00:36:32,119 was a work in Gyan was collecting 802 00:36:36,460 --> 00:36:33,950 samples so that he could send him back 803 00:36:38,790 --> 00:36:36,470 and sell them to keep his life going to 804 00:36:42,190 --> 00:36:38,800 job and he was also a guy that collected 805 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:42,200 thousands and thousands over 250,000 806 00:36:47,349 --> 00:36:45,170 samples so he saw a bigger field a 807 00:36:49,720 --> 00:36:47,359 bigger playing field but that you can 808 00:36:52,540 --> 00:36:49,730 start to draw these conclusions about 809 00:36:54,220 --> 00:36:52,550 what does this worldview mean in terms 810 00:36:57,030 --> 00:36:54,230 of how it's worked its way into our 811 00:37:00,069 --> 00:36:57,040 culture our culture is about 812 00:37:01,990 --> 00:37:00,079 individual survival it's about although 813 00:37:04,660 --> 00:37:02,000 Darwin can't be credited with coining 814 00:37:07,329 --> 00:37:04,670 the term it's about survival of the 815 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:07,339 fittest and we use that over and over 816 00:37:14,230 --> 00:37:11,210 and over again in every aspect of our 817 00:37:16,870 --> 00:37:14,240 endeavors to to justify what we do and 818 00:37:19,450 --> 00:37:16,880 how we do it that to me is why all this 819 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:19,460 is so important because when we reflect 820 00:37:24,130 --> 00:37:21,650 back on what it means about the world we 821 00:37:26,290 --> 00:37:24,140 live in it's really kind of stunning yes 822 00:37:28,720 --> 00:37:26,300 indeed one of the point you just send it 823 00:37:30,370 --> 00:37:28,730 and I'm not quite sure about whether 824 00:37:34,089 --> 00:37:30,380 well you may be right in there and but 825 00:37:37,930 --> 00:37:34,099 but what is what I showed us that it was 826 00:37:41,109 --> 00:37:37,940 the most subtle the smallest the the 827 00:37:43,839 --> 00:37:41,119 least observable change in one 828 00:37:45,730 --> 00:37:43,849 individual in any society which gives 829 00:37:48,430 --> 00:37:45,740 him an advantage or her an advantage in 830 00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:48,440 the general way of life that allows of 831 00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:50,210 that particular advantage to be passed 832 00:37:57,490 --> 00:37:54,170 on eventually a group can be formed from 833 00:37:58,960 --> 00:37:57,500 that individual advantage well I don't 834 00:38:01,299 --> 00:37:58,970 know and I don't think that that's 835 00:38:04,450 --> 00:38:01,309 necessarily inconsistent with what 836 00:38:07,240 --> 00:38:04,460 Flannery saying but flannerys point I 837 00:38:09,339 --> 00:38:07,250 think to me was quite profound in that 838 00:38:12,819 --> 00:38:09,349 what he said in really digging into 839 00:38:16,329 --> 00:38:12,829 Wallace's writings was that Wallace 840 00:38:19,930 --> 00:38:16,339 found that it was competition occurring 841 00:38:22,089 --> 00:38:19,940 among groups in a demographic sense that 842 00:38:23,950 --> 00:38:22,099 really ultimately made the difference 843 00:38:25,630 --> 00:38:23,960 made the leap forward and I don't think 844 00:38:28,660 --> 00:38:25,640 that's inconsistent with what you're 845 00:38:30,910 --> 00:38:28,670 saying because an individual change can 846 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:30,920 then benefit the group and then the 847 00:38:35,589 --> 00:38:33,530 group can win out but what he saw and I 848 00:38:38,260 --> 00:38:35,599 think this is obvious to all of us just 849 00:38:42,730 --> 00:38:38,270 looking at it is that if your individual 850 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:42,740 change doesn't benefit your group then 851 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:45,530 you're really not going to advance and 852 00:38:49,210 --> 00:38:47,450 survive because it is at the end of the 853 00:38:51,339 --> 00:38:49,220 day it's about whether you're whether 854 00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:51,349 you're a group whether your tribe 855 00:38:57,789 --> 00:38:54,890 advances you can't do it alone the way I 856 00:39:00,190 --> 00:38:57,799 do I I agree I didn't understand exactly 857 00:39:02,829 --> 00:39:00,200 right now explain that I understand 858 00:39:04,690 --> 00:39:02,839 because the group eventually has to 859 00:39:07,150 --> 00:39:04,700 perform as a group against any other 860 00:39:09,910 --> 00:39:07,160 groups seeking the same kind of food or 861 00:39:10,210 --> 00:39:09,920 same kind of place or whatever exactly 862 00:39:14,380 --> 00:39:10,220 it 863 00:39:16,599 --> 00:39:14,390 but if we just look at Darwin Darwin was 864 00:39:18,550 --> 00:39:16,609 really saying something different and 865 00:39:20,170 --> 00:39:18,560 it's partly because of the way he was 866 00:39:21,849 --> 00:39:20,180 collecting samples and he wasn't 867 00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:21,859 collecting as many samples and he was 868 00:39:26,290 --> 00:39:23,330 only collecting him on the claw pago's 869 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:26,300 what he saw is that hey you know whoever 870 00:39:33,070 --> 00:39:29,810 is the the most fit will get the right 871 00:39:34,810 --> 00:39:33,080 to breed and their offspring will pro 872 00:39:37,599 --> 00:39:34,820 generate and all that stuff which is 873 00:39:40,210 --> 00:39:37,609 true but what he didn't do was pull the 874 00:39:43,570 --> 00:39:40,220 lens back a little bit and say okay so 875 00:39:48,430 --> 00:39:43,580 now I have these hyenas here this tribe 876 00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:48,440 but if they can't succeed in the overall 877 00:39:54,070 --> 00:39:51,650 environment that they're in then it 878 00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:54,080 doesn't go forward as a group it can't 879 00:39:58,990 --> 00:39:56,090 be just about that one individual that 880 00:40:01,660 --> 00:39:59,000 one individual change then changes the 881 00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:01,670 group yet whether or not the genes 882 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:03,530 ultimately go forward is whether or not 883 00:40:08,140 --> 00:40:06,290 that group is successful okay no one 884 00:40:11,740 --> 00:40:08,150 thing that worries me a little that you 885 00:40:15,579 --> 00:40:11,750 just said is that darling domin see 886 00:40:17,230 --> 00:40:15,589 resolution I got to go to object on that 887 00:40:20,050 --> 00:40:17,240 one I don't think it is Darwin see 888 00:40:21,970 --> 00:40:20,060 deterioration I think it's I think it's 889 00:40:24,910 --> 00:40:21,980 lawless uctv pollution right right right 890 00:40:26,410 --> 00:40:24,920 right sorry I mean I know everybody knew 891 00:40:28,180 --> 00:40:26,420 will thinks it's Darwin theory but I 892 00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:28,190 actually don't think it now in serie I 893 00:40:32,140 --> 00:40:29,890 think Darwin pinched it from others and 894 00:40:35,290 --> 00:40:32,150 didn't have a theory of his own at all 895 00:40:39,010 --> 00:40:35,300 right tell me this what has it been like 896 00:40:41,349 --> 00:40:39,020 for you pursuing this research it's it's 897 00:40:44,470 --> 00:40:41,359 obviously you're a guy who's not afraid 898 00:40:47,530 --> 00:40:44,480 from a little bit of confrontation and 899 00:40:49,570 --> 00:40:47,540 we're all benefiting from the fact that 900 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:49,580 you are not shy about that but what does 901 00:40:54,730 --> 00:40:51,290 this been like for you to go through 902 00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:54,740 this oh I have to tell you that I've 903 00:40:59,020 --> 00:40:56,570 enjoyed every minute of it I think the 904 00:41:02,770 --> 00:40:59,030 odds are fair you see I think me against 905 00:41:05,050 --> 00:41:02,780 the rest is fair odds hahaha if it was 906 00:41:06,460 --> 00:41:05,060 if it was two of me in the rest I mean 907 00:41:08,650 --> 00:41:06,470 that wouldn't be fair but I mean did it 908 00:41:11,500 --> 00:41:08,660 because I'm because I am Who I am 909 00:41:14,140 --> 00:41:11,510 because I because I don't tend to give 910 00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:14,150 up on things you know no matter what van 911 00:41:19,030 --> 00:41:16,490 why says or Charles Smith says or you 912 00:41:20,190 --> 00:41:19,040 know I mean what do you mean people who 913 00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:20,200 are 914 00:41:25,510 --> 00:41:22,610 well I don't know many other people who 915 00:41:27,910 --> 00:41:25,520 are well people like in the former 916 00:41:29,770 --> 00:41:27,920 Oxford professor you know who's also 917 00:41:31,630 --> 00:41:29,780 said that I don't know what I'm talking 918 00:41:32,950 --> 00:41:31,640 about also all sorts of people say I 919 00:41:34,810 --> 00:41:32,960 don't know what I'm talking but no one 920 00:41:37,390 --> 00:41:34,820 of them will actually take it on as a 921 00:41:39,010 --> 00:41:37,400 frontal attack isn't that amazing I've 922 00:41:41,230 --> 00:41:39,020 run across that so many times you know 923 00:41:43,420 --> 00:41:41,240 it's it's a lot of talk until it gets 924 00:41:45,340 --> 00:41:43,430 down to okay let's square off and then 925 00:41:47,530 --> 00:41:45,350 it's what like I it's not even worth my 926 00:41:50,380 --> 00:41:47,540 time to debate it well it will exactly 927 00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:50,390 and and I've actually been in the debate 928 00:41:55,990 --> 00:41:53,690 with with one of the people who are 929 00:41:59,170 --> 00:41:56,000 against what i say mostly about the 930 00:42:01,780 --> 00:41:59,180 shipping and the lessons and the letters 931 00:42:03,850 --> 00:42:01,790 start and we talk to each other talk to 932 00:42:05,170 --> 00:42:03,860 each other I make points he makes points 933 00:42:06,490 --> 00:42:05,180 I make points he makes points and 934 00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:06,500 eventually I say something like well 935 00:42:12,850 --> 00:42:09,650 look don't you think that given all my 936 00:42:14,590 --> 00:42:12,860 objections to your objections and all 937 00:42:16,240 --> 00:42:14,600 the points that i make in which referred 938 00:42:18,250 --> 00:42:16,250 you don't you think that we should them 939 00:42:20,140 --> 00:42:18,260 but you should actually come out and say 940 00:42:23,110 --> 00:42:20,150 that then you don't want to throw people 941 00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:23,120 the sun in people's eyes anymore and it 942 00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:25,690 stopped never came back simply because 943 00:42:31,510 --> 00:42:28,610 the last challenge is the one which says 944 00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:31,520 look please you know if I'm wrong tell 945 00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:33,530 me I'm wrong because I've got the wrong 946 00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:35,090 facts but don't tell me I wrong because 947 00:42:40,750 --> 00:42:37,610 you think it might be something else you 948 00:42:42,970 --> 00:42:40,760 know and and and and because I because I 949 00:42:46,090 --> 00:42:42,980 mean so while I'm stuck now with this 950 00:42:48,250 --> 00:42:46,100 idea Roy Davis of conspiracy theorist 951 00:42:50,350 --> 00:42:48,260 but then you know whenever anybody gives 952 00:42:52,090 --> 00:42:50,360 me a chance to talk about it I will but 953 00:42:54,010 --> 00:42:52,100 having talked about it now for five 954 00:42:55,420 --> 00:42:54,020 years you know and still got nowhere 955 00:42:57,880 --> 00:42:55,430 with people who really don't want to 956 00:43:00,580 --> 00:42:57,890 believe and have spurious ideas why they 957 00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:00,590 can't be right you know slowly I'm 958 00:43:03,370 --> 00:43:01,970 coming to the point where maybe there's 959 00:43:05,890 --> 00:43:03,380 something else in life without going on 960 00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:05,900 about you know Wallace and Darwin not 961 00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:07,970 not that I would ever not talk about all 962 00:43:11,770 --> 00:43:09,770 this but we detoured about Darwin seems 963 00:43:13,570 --> 00:43:11,780 to me to be counterproductive there's a 964 00:43:17,170 --> 00:43:13,580 dilemma right i mean you reach a point 965 00:43:20,290 --> 00:43:17,180 where you have to tire a little bit of 966 00:43:22,930 --> 00:43:20,300 the topic and when you see that progress 967 00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:22,940 isn't being made you say ok let me move 968 00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:24,650 on and then of course this is what the 969 00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:26,810 critics wait for because then of course 970 00:43:30,670 --> 00:43:28,610 they'll pronounce the idea dead and that 971 00:43:32,890 --> 00:43:30,680 you don't even pursue it anymore exactly 972 00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:32,900 yeah if you've got it so why do you 973 00:43:34,660 --> 00:43:33,290 think 974 00:43:38,500 --> 00:43:34,670 so pleased that you wanted to talk to me 975 00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:38,510 it's an idea that will live on for as 976 00:43:44,980 --> 00:43:42,650 long as people are willing to pursue it 977 00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:44,990 in an open honest fair-minded way 978 00:43:49,750 --> 00:43:46,970 because when they do they can really 979 00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:49,760 come to no other conclusion but as we 980 00:43:54,580 --> 00:43:51,530 know as I've explored so many times on 981 00:43:56,170 --> 00:43:54,590 this show to folks who are married to a 982 00:43:58,720 --> 00:43:56,180 particular worldview he'll have a lot of 983 00:44:00,940 --> 00:43:58,730 personal investment in believing things 984 00:44:02,740 --> 00:44:00,950 or a certain way well it's going to be 985 00:44:04,150 --> 00:44:02,750 very frustrating because it's gonna be 986 00:44:05,470 --> 00:44:04,160 frustrating for you and frustrating for 987 00:44:07,990 --> 00:44:05,480 them they're going to dismiss it out of 988 00:44:12,900 --> 00:44:08,000 hand and you're never going to hear from 989 00:44:16,240 --> 00:44:12,910 them again well I I don't mind I'd like 990 00:44:18,340 --> 00:44:16,250 what is what is what is good what is 991 00:44:21,340 --> 00:44:18,350 good about the world and a good for the 992 00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:21,350 Internet age and the whole modern ways 993 00:44:25,240 --> 00:44:23,450 of communication is that you don't have 994 00:44:27,190 --> 00:44:25,250 to wait for a letter for six weeks from 995 00:44:29,470 --> 00:44:27,200 India but you can actually phone 996 00:44:31,540 --> 00:44:29,480 somebody from San Diego find out what 997 00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:31,550 they are saying in London and then tell 998 00:44:35,830 --> 00:44:33,290 people in South Africa what's happening 999 00:44:37,990 --> 00:44:35,840 if that is the way the thing goes then 1000 00:44:39,460 --> 00:44:38,000 I'm all for it you know and if somebody 1001 00:44:41,350 --> 00:44:39,470 wants to get in touch with me you say 1002 00:44:43,180 --> 00:44:41,360 I'm wrong or they can prove that I'm 1003 00:44:45,790 --> 00:44:43,190 wrong or show that I'm wrong then quite 1004 00:44:48,460 --> 00:44:45,800 happily and I'll answer them well you 1005 00:44:51,910 --> 00:44:48,470 know Roy that might be a very nice way 1006 00:44:55,300 --> 00:44:51,920 to wrap things out it kind of brings 1007 00:44:57,880 --> 00:44:55,310 full circle letter communications and 1008 00:45:00,550 --> 00:44:57,890 communication gaps and how maybe the 1009 00:45:03,100 --> 00:45:00,560 internet is partially can can play a 1010 00:45:04,810 --> 00:45:03,110 role in that solution of tightening 1011 00:45:06,610 --> 00:45:04,820 those communication gaps so you 1012 00:45:08,350 --> 00:45:06,620 mentioned it a little bit in passing 1013 00:45:10,150 --> 00:45:08,360 that you're still interested in this 1014 00:45:11,770 --> 00:45:10,160 work but there isn't a lot of work going 1015 00:45:13,330 --> 00:45:11,780 forward what are the things are you 1016 00:45:16,330 --> 00:45:13,340 involved with right now what projects 1017 00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:16,340 are you working on I'm not this as I 1018 00:45:19,690 --> 00:45:18,170 told you with the the woman from Wales 1019 00:45:22,030 --> 00:45:19,700 who said that chose the wrong story this 1020 00:45:24,220 --> 00:45:22,040 pretty well dominated then the next 12 1021 00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:24,230 years of my life and the last five years 1022 00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:26,330 since the book was published I pretty 1023 00:45:30,190 --> 00:45:27,890 well given lectures all over the place 1024 00:45:31,990 --> 00:45:30,200 and not too much avail people still 1025 00:45:34,150 --> 00:45:32,000 believe that Darwin is the king and 1026 00:45:37,150 --> 00:45:34,160 Wallace was very much a sort of a an 1027 00:45:38,860 --> 00:45:37,160 inferior prints but and where I am at 1028 00:45:40,510 --> 00:45:38,870 the moment is thinking about a 1029 00:45:41,950 --> 00:45:40,520 screenplay not although one of my 1030 00:45:43,570 --> 00:45:41,960 colleagues is suggesting a screenplay 1031 00:45:45,190 --> 00:45:43,580 about the Wallace darling story but I 1032 00:45:46,930 --> 00:45:45,200 might not sure that that works but 1033 00:45:49,390 --> 00:45:46,940 that's it one way but 1034 00:45:51,730 --> 00:45:49,400 I'm a trained as a screenwriter a couple 1035 00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:51,740 of years ago and then and so I'm just 1036 00:45:55,450 --> 00:45:53,810 thinking of something which is such a 1037 00:45:57,670 --> 00:45:55,460 good idea that people can't resist it 1038 00:45:59,470 --> 00:45:57,680 but then I'm not going to take a long 1039 00:46:01,930 --> 00:45:59,480 time sure it could be could be ages 1040 00:46:04,990 --> 00:46:01,940 before you hear from me again well I 1041 00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:05,000 hope it isn't that long it's it's an 1042 00:46:09,660 --> 00:46:07,970 idea and a book that as I said right 1043 00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:09,670 from the beginning is one of the most 1044 00:46:14,589 --> 00:46:13,010 underappreciated works that I've seen 1045 00:46:17,290 --> 00:46:14,599 and the implications are just dramatic 1046 00:46:20,230 --> 00:46:17,300 the name of the book again is the Darwin 1047 00:46:24,790 --> 00:46:20,240 conspiracy origins of a scientific crime 1048 00:46:26,770 --> 00:46:24,800 our guest has been Roy Davis Roy thanks 1049 00:46:30,670 --> 00:46:26,780 so much for joining me today on skeptic 1050 00:46:32,349 --> 00:46:30,680 oh thank you very much like thanks again 1051 00:46:35,140 --> 00:46:32,359 to Roy Davis for joining me today on 1052 00:46:37,750 --> 00:46:35,150 skeptic oh when we're off the air Roy 1053 00:46:39,940 --> 00:46:37,760 made a very very generous offer to 1054 00:46:43,210 --> 00:46:39,950 skeptical listeners and I want to pass 1055 00:46:45,370 --> 00:46:43,220 that along to you Roy told me that even 1056 00:46:48,609 --> 00:46:45,380 though this book is very very hard to 1057 00:46:51,849 --> 00:46:48,619 come by he has a number of copies that 1058 00:46:55,420 --> 00:46:51,859 he'd be willing to give away for free as 1059 00:46:58,270 --> 00:46:55,430 long as you cover his postage so if you 1060 00:47:01,329 --> 00:46:58,280 want to email me I will send you Roy's 1061 00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:01,339 email address as a way to get in contact 1062 00:47:07,720 --> 00:47:04,010 with him and you can take him up on that 1063 00:47:10,270 --> 00:47:07,730 generous offer ok just one question to 1064 00:47:12,490 --> 00:47:10,280 tee up from this interview did Darwin 1065 00:47:14,740 --> 00:47:12,500 plagiarize the work of Alfred Russel 1066 00:47:16,589 --> 00:47:14,750 Wallace it seems clear to me that he did 1067 00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:16,599 but I'd like to hear your opinion 1068 00:47:22,300 --> 00:47:19,970 including your opinion on Roy Davis's 1069 00:47:24,730 --> 00:47:22,310 critics who are out there in our quite 1070 00:47:26,260 --> 00:47:24,740 vocal as well let me know your thoughts 1071 00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:26,270 the place to do it is through the 1072 00:47:32,650 --> 00:47:30,770 skeptical website at ske pti k 0 com 1073 00:47:35,190 --> 00:47:32,660 from there you'll find a link to our 1074 00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:35,200 form a comment section on the website 1075 00:47:40,990 --> 00:47:37,970 Facebook email link to me and all that 1076 00:47:43,059 --> 00:47:41,000 good stuff you'll also find over 250 1077 00:47:45,099 --> 00:47:43,069 previous episodes of skeptic oh where 1078 00:47:47,890 --> 00:47:45,109 you can download them all for free or 1079 00:47:49,839 --> 00:47:47,900 subscribe on iTunes love to have you do 1080 00:47:52,059 --> 00:47:49,849 that love to hear about folks who are 1081 00:47:54,579 --> 00:47:52,069 catching up on all the old episodes and 1082 00:47:57,160 --> 00:47:54,589 enjoying that little time capsule that's 1083 00:47:59,180 --> 00:47:57,170 been created out there number of 1084 00:48:01,190 --> 00:47:59,190 interesting shows coming up 1085 00:48:03,290 --> 00:48:01,200 won't go through all of them with you 1086 00:48:05,660 --> 00:48:03,300 but I'll just try and get them out to 1087 00:48:08,870 --> 00:48:05,670 you so you can enjoy them as much as I